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The ArenaCase 009

What's the Joke?

1
The SpecimenSAT 6:24 PM
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@DanielRalston
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[1h] Kirk was a trash racist piece of shit. That's exactly why people are metaphorically pissing all over his grave. You love to see it! 😹👍
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The ReadSAT 6:32 PM
Yes, it's Charlie again. The Charlie posts always bring them out, and put me into fight mode. Three things jump out. "Metaphorically." He built his exit into the very first sentence, before anyone asked. If someone calls him on it, he never meant it literally. "You love to see it!" with a clown emoji pointing at us... the people who mourn Charlie. That's a celebration. An enthusiastic endorsement of the grave-spitting. And look who's holding the gun in the cartoon. A stick figure waving the American flag. Not Tyler Robinson. America. Daniel is a real person, not a bot. I looked at his profile a bit. He has friends, lots of people engage with his posts and seem to like him. He doesn't seem like that bad of a guy. I saw pictures of him camping with his friends... reminded me of going camping with my friends. Keep that in mind as I engage him. I'm trying to talk to him as though one of my friends said this to me. I am genuinely curious first, before I think about casting any judgment. And once my curiosity pays off, and I have what I need... I lay the trap.
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The CounterSAT 6:44 PM
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“Daniel Ralston Daniel, welcome! It's a pleasure to have you here. Quick question... Was it okay to murder Charlie Kirk? ~ Clay”
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He Gives the Right AnswerSAT 6:46 PM
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Daniel Ralston · 1h Thomas Sowell Quotes no, it definitely wasn't okay that Kirk was murdered. Political violence shouldn't be condoned whatsoever.
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We Find Common GroundSAT 6:51 PM
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“Thomas Sowell Quotes · 1h · Author Daniel Ralston Good. Well said. "Political violence shouldn't be condoned whatsoever." We're in complete agreement. So explain your meme to me, then. What's the joke? -- Clay”
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He Explains the JokeSAT 6:54 PM
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@DanielRalston
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[46m] Thomas Sowell Quotes the joke and irony of it all is he made a career out of promoting this perverse and very unhealthy gun culture we have here in America and then that perverse and very unhealthy gun culture ended up being the thing that killed him. I'm not condoning political violence with this meme and I don't think that was the original authors intent for it either. People like me simply aren't letting Kirk's legacy become whitewashed. He was an awful person who sowed incredible division. He wasn't a good guy.
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who's holding the gun?SAT 7:00 PM
"Gun culture ended up being the thing that killed him."
That's the cartoon again, in his words, and that's the "joke." America holding the gun. Not Tyler Robinson. So I put Tyler back in the picture.
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A Man Named Tyler RobinsonSAT 7:02 PM
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“Raniel Ralston Gun culture didn't kill Charlie, Daniel. A man named Tyler Robinson did...in the kind of rifle you can legally own in any country that lets you hunt deer. I assume we're on the same page here, that you're not a Candace fan or one of the conspiracy guys... Do you know why Tyler said he did it? ~ Clay”
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He Agrees with TylerSAT 7:09 PM
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@DanielRalston
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[42m] Thomas Sowell Quotes I blame the gun culture in this country. It's destructive and deadly and unique to America. There are plenty of other countries around the world that allow gun ownership and make it central to their citizenry and they don't have the mass shooter problems we have. No, I don't subscribe to all the stuff Candace owns has to say on the matter. I think the official story from the government is most likely the real story. I haven't seen anything substantive to make me believe otherwise. At least not yet. Yes, Tyler Robinson sited the hatred and division Kirk was spreading — Tyler wanted to put a stop to it. Tyler's actions are wrong but his assessment of Kirk wasn't. Kirk, much like Rush Limbaugh, made a career out of sowing division. Nobody even thinks of Rush Limbaugh or his career anymore because he didn't offer anything up of real value. Same as Kirk. 10 years from now people will hardly remember who he was because all he did was offer up hate and division.
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The ReadSAT 7:28 PM
The first thing I want you to notice is the length of his replies. Do you see how they keep getting longer? His first reply was two sentences. This one is six paragraphs. When someone feels trapped, he won't say so. He writes a longer explanation. I bet you've done this before... I know I have... too many times. I read it as weakness now. He's rationalizing, trying to convince himself. I see myself in Daniel, a little bit. Now comes the question of how to reply. I have options here, and each of them has consequences. The worst approach would be to start arguing with him point by point. Gun culture, Rush Limbaugh, the official story. Every one of those is a side road that will have you competing with the length of his posts. Wasting your time.... and his one sentence gets lost in the noise.
Tyler's actions are wrong but his assessment of Kirk wasn't.
There it is. He didn't slip. He looked at the killer's reason and signed his name under it. Notice how there's no joke anymore. Nobody's laughing. He's treating this like a serious intellectual debate all of a sudden. One option I have, if I wanted to be cruel, is to provoke him further with a leading question... so he wastes his time writing 10 more paragraphs to me... then I wouldn't read it. That's a move of pure contempt, and it's one I have in my belt, because I'm in control here. Notice who's leading who. But that's not how I do things. As far as I'm concerned, the battle is already over.
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For His ConscienceSAT 7:39 PM
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“"I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out." ~ Tyler Robinson, texting his roommate "Tyler's actions are wrong but his assessment of Kirk wasn't." ~ Daniel Ralston Some hate can't be negotiated out. Daniel. So what can be done about it? You don't have to answer me. That one's for your conscience. Thank you for spending your time on a Saturday engaging with me, Daniel. I hope you have a wonderful evening. Come back anytime. ~ Clay”
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Feel Bad About YourselfSAT 9:33 PM
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@DanielRalston
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[1h] Thomas Sowell Quotes thanks for being cordial but I should be clear, I think you're trash. I think your entire toxic culture is bullshit, you're quite literally traitors to our republic as Trump supporters, and people like you have a serious wake up call coming. Feel bad about yourself. Be ashamed. You are the bad guy.
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Still CuriousSAT 11:19 PM
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“Daniel Ralston: I feel blessed, Daniel. I hope you do too. I'm still curious, though. If Tyler was right about Charlie, what should he have done instead? Clay”
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The SpecimenSUN 12:12 PM
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@DanielRalston
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[20m] Thomas Sowell Quotes I feel blessed every time I wake up and remind myself I wasn't born stupid or hateful enough to become a Charlie Kirk supporter. If Kirk's shooter was actually interested in doing something fair and effective against Charlie Kirk's bad free speech, he should've combatted it with more free speech — better free speech, speech that isn't riddle with lies and misinformation. It was trivial to refute the silly shit Kirk was saying. He didn't need to be silenced with a gun. The moment he decided to graduate his little schtick from debating children exclusively to debating actual adults and experts in the field, his ignorant ass would've been trounced before lunch. He almost never debated actual adults for reason.
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Why I Feel BlessedSUN 6:42 PM
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“Daniel Ralston Daniel... you came back! Thank you! I honestly was expecting you to leave me hanging on that question... I'm delighted, genuinely. You told us you feel blessed every morning that you weren't born "stupid or hateful enough to become a Charlie Kirk supporter." I appreciate you sharing that. It gives us great insight into who Daniel is. I'd like to tell you why I feel blessed. When I wake up in the morning, the first thing I do is thank God for all of the blessings in my life. My family, my friends, my career, my health, my dog... and even my enemies, who I cherish. I cherish my enemies because they make me sharper. Every one of them teaches me something, and teaches my readers something too. You taught us something too, Daniel. You showed us what it looks like when a normal, well-liked guy agrees with the man who killed Charlie. You posted all of this under your real profile, with real pictures of you and your friends. I saw the pictures of you guys camping... looks like fun. Reminds me of going camping with my friends. I bet you and I could have fun together, Daniel. I bet we could get along... I see a lot of myself in you. When I was younger, and felt cornered in an argument... I'd write longer and longer explanations, trying to convince myself as much as anyone else. Does that sound familiar, Daniel? Somewhere along the way, someone taught you that Charlie was a man whose death was worth celebrating. I don't think you came up with that on your own. If you actually read the piece you're commenting on, you'd find yourself in it. I wrote it before I ever met you. And so, what's my point? Not much. I just want you to know that I see you, that I cherish you, and I will pray for you. God bless you. ~ Clay p.s. One more thing. You work for me now, Daniel. You're helping fund my work... isn't that awesome? People are going to send me money, and they're going to attach a message for you with every dollar. You did that for me. Thank you. The messages will be publicly available if you want to watch them come in: stopbeingprey.com/walls/bless-daniel”
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The VerdictSUN 6:44 PM
Daniel in two lines: Here's a meme celebrating a political murder. Also, political violence should never be condoned. Thanks for being cordial. Now let me accuse you of crimes punishable by death. Traitor. By staying graceful and curious, I was able to get him on record agreeing with the man who killed Charlie. Then I went back with one more question: if Tyler was right about Charlie, what should he have done instead? Daniel answered: "more free speech." "He didn't need to be silenced with a gun." His own answer undercut the assessment he'd just defended. There was another way, and he knew it. The truth is, I think Daniel does support political murder... he just knows how bad it looks to say it publicly, so he dresses it up in memes. But notice who had control of this conversation the whole time. Who was leading, and who was following. Who was prosecuting and who was defending. Who was decent and who wasn't. And in the end, Daniel went to work for me. Every dollar on his wall funds my work, with a blessing attached: stopbeingprey.com/walls/bless-daniel These things become a little clearer with every fight, when you lead with curiosity and grace. You become a little sharper.
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✦ SEALED ✦
Filed as Case № 009. Part of the record.
SUN 6:46 PM

The bout is filed. The floor is open.

Comments

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  • J
    Jeffrey R.Charter25

    Daniel's utterance and your response, reminded me of the parable of the Pharisee and tax collector in Luke 18:9-14. Jesus concludes that the humble (Kirk follower), rather than the self-righteous (Daniel), was justified before God, emphasizing that those who exalt themselves will be humbled. Thanks for another entertaining lesson, Clay!

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    PaulFounder45

    I think Daniel is the second contestant to appear in the Arena who predicts Charlie's fade into the memory hole by invoking the supposedly-forgotten name of Rush Limbaugh. But, if Rush Limbaugh is forgotten, how is it that these clowns would even think to mention him??? One might easily conclude that they are accidentally predicting Charlie's immortal memory.

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    C
    ClayAuthor

    That's very perceptive, Paul. They pick the most famous name they can think of to prove nobody remembers anyone. The argument defeats itself.

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    RonFounder8

    I love these examples. I'm using them to sharpen my own skills on the opening volley. For this one, I think the key question for Daniel is: "What standards do we want to apply to ourselves when someone we profoundly disagree with dies?"
    Here was my practice response:
    I understand that you strongly disagreed with Charlie Kirk and considered some of his views racist. But I’m curious about the next step. Even if we assume your characterization of him is completely justified, what principle gets us from “this person held hateful views” to celebrating people metaphorically urinating on his grave?
    That distinction matters. We can condemn someone's ideas without surrendering our own humanity when that person dies. In fact, that's probably when the principle matters most.
    You don't have to admire Charlie Kirk. You don't have to rehabilitate his views. You don't even have to mourn him. But if our standard becomes people I consider hateful deserve hatred even in death, we've preserved the hatred and merely changed its target.
    I'd rather criticize bad ideas while they're alive—and refuse to become what I objected to after they're gone.

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    • P
      PaulFounder45(edited)

      That's very good. It would probably fall on deaf ears and blind eyes; but it's a good play to the audience.

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    PaulFounder45

    Daniel blames and condemns the "gun culture" of America. I blame and condemn the "murder culture" of America. Daniel sounds like he's squarely inside of it.

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    • C
      ClayAuthor

      That is well put, Paul.

  • Z
    ZakFounder48

    Eric Hoffer was a longshoreman on the docks in San Francisco. He was self-taught and authored "The True Believer." We are exposing blind fanaticism here.

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